February 08, 2004

To invest time and money in Central or to not.. That is the question.

Holy crap... don't go looking at the last post on this blog (this post too) unless you have a pot of coffee/tea, a whole box of cookies, and a couple of pillows proppin' you up. What a great reaction to my post. I didn't think that it would get so much attention, maybe attract Mike C from MM to answer a few questions I had but instead I got napalmed by aSH :) He was kind enough to post a huge resource list on his blog and I was going to post there but decided I didn't want to take this great conversation to two places and am posting here.

But before I get to his awesome post I want to stop off at Mike's and say thanks a lot. You have cleared up quite a few things all at once. My remaining questions and comments for you are:

1. Do you have a timeframe of any sorts as to when you are going to provide localization?

2. You say it's going to go to FP7 but I've seen in the info that aSH pointed me to that you also want to support PDA's. They don't run the FP7. Only FP6 at the highest.

3. Saying that PDA's are going to be supported, but Central is a hog on memory, (from another source that aSH pointed me too - your blog). How is this going to work?

4. Selling apps, I usually sell apps either that are standalone or in a browser. They are sold based on what the client has asked for, or a predetermined set of guidelines that have been set that a client may want, and then offering it. With Central, I not only have to sell my app, but I have to sell Central too. This is because one will not be useful without the other.

5. Flash is the player that my apps my run on, but not in. Flash apps run in central, but not on it. You don't create apps with Central, you create apps FOR Central. Using the framework that Central provides with the agents and pods. Central is new, the browser isn't, and is common place and already installed on all OS's default.

6. The security issues that I can think of are Central itself. But I can't think of anymore "specific issues" that I haven't already brought up at the moment, but when I do I'll bring them up.

7. I can't wait to see what happens with branding. This is a biggy.

8. I have seen the articles (thanks to aSH again) on the partnerships you have, I noticed that Intel is being used for online/offline status detection, but I see on your blog a lot of requests for "real" detection. What's that all about?

Yahoo partnership for payments, that's cool. I hope they accept all currencies.. I have no info so I'm just tossing out my thought there.

AOL... hmm. this is quite interesting. I use MSN myself so wouldn't have much use for it at the moment but I can imagine all kinds of stuff. How does this compete with FCS? Are there any worries about that?

9. My bad.. apologies for getting the percent wrong. 20%, got it.

10. Yes I do mean that Central is installed from MM. But it's not so much the exact fact that it's installed from MM, but the fact that a new techonology is out that hasn't proved reliablity yet. I do realize that it wouldn't be in your best interest to cut your developers off at the knees, but MM hasn't been instilling a heck of a lot of confidence lately with the poor release of MX2004, the continuous bugs and lack of updates. I do admit that there has been some, but when I see so much effort going into a new technology without any effort to the current ones that aren't working as they should, it makes me wonder what will happen when Central starts playing up. When bugs pop up, will they get swept under the rug like MM's other apps? See my post on FCS bugs and features for just one example out there. I'm not so much attacking MM I think as I am giving my current impression.

11. Yes, the user may consider it if they feel it's useful. But I still don't see what Central can offer (application-wise) that people don't already have. In the roadmap for Central I noticed that you are thinking to create Corporate directories, and group to-do lists... This is already taken care of by Outlook. A blog writer, that seems neat but I hate working with text formatting in flash myself, I hope it works better than what I am working on right now at this very moment. Data visualization, I would assume this means graphs and charts. Unfortunately for flash, bringing in tons of data bogs it down so badly that it just isn't useful anymore. How will you make the charts without maxing out the CPU?

12. Too much info out? No, I wouldn't complain about that :) But I would like to see some real life apps that I would consider actually buying. I suppose that will take some time, and it's like the chicken and egg...

I want to note that you have helped me A LOT. You and aSH with his huge list of resources he put up. I feel I owe the both of you to go through all of them, read carefully and move forward from there. I have read most, and am taking notes.. I'm sure I'll post more on this soon. (all this writing because of a cardboard tube!! ... though I do remember something bright blue flying out the end when I was swinging it around...)

JD, thanks for coming in with some comments. I really like your comment that to find the best fit for a particular project. This brings things back down to earth a bit I think, helps me see Central in another light (along with the other channels that I already have available to me)

I totally understand what you're on with the advertising and getting people to commit. I was thinking the exact same thing when I wrote in this post on number 12 to Mike.

aSH... dude.. you are the man when it comes to making a case. Are you a lawyer? I've never seen anybody be able to quote so many sources and provide so many links about one thing in my life. I've taken it all very seriously and have tried to reply in my questions to Mike. If you have any answers or thoughts on any of them, I'd be more than happy to hear them.

I see this time that you have tried your best to reply in more of a way that I go and find the answers I need on my own by giving me the directions to find them. Thanks a lot for that.

BTW, I know what user experience means, I didn't know what "UX" meant. That's all.

I kind of wish you had a comment or two on my last comment as I meant in no way to attack or offend, it was just a "feeling" I had due to the answers that were provided. If I did offend you (which I think I did..) my apologies.

David, thanks for the comments on your blog, I went over them one by one and here are my comments on them:

1. Right, I understand this now. It's not so much a workaround for the application, is that Central itself is in English.

2. Not having the mouse scroller may not be a showstopper in effect, but having it would be "normal".

3. Security is a major issue, and I think I've covered most of my worries in above comments.. I will try to put together a much more organized list of things I would like to see addressed as soon as I enlighten myself a lot more with Central.

4. hmm... we are going to have to agree to disagree.

5. File access is nice... but I can do that already with Screenweaver, or Flash Studio Pro. I think I was trying to address more of an issue of where Central is heading in the marketing arena. How are they going to get the big boys to use this. Is Oracle or IBM going to implement Central in the offices? I guess it would be more things that instill confidence that a particular app is being used by a company that has taken a lot more time and energy and money to research it and say "Central is worth it!".

6. Using AOL's IM engine costs money? wow... I didn't know that. The app finder only benefits me if people actually look at it. Until somebody actually installs Central it isn't available (as far as I know). Merchant background? I don't know any merchants that will take 20%. (I know that Central offers more for that price)

7. ok

8. I'd like to see it get past this bump in the road, we'll see how MM addresses this issue I think.

Yes, facts are very important, something I need to work on right from this point. Thanks for the insight with your thoughts.

In conclusion for this post, I must say that I'm quite surprised at the reaction from the Central community. I've now got a pile of info to go through, we'll see if it's enough to convince me to take time out of my current dev/des projects and research and develop for it. I really like Mikes post on what other developers want. Almost everything in there mentioned is something I would like to see too.

I have never in my life written so much on one particular topic... *whew*

Posted by Graeme at February 8, 2004 03:53 PM
　



Comments

[drinking tea, and eating cookies ;)] We are all learning and sharing our thoughts and experiences. We learn together when we ask, when we expose our ideas publicly, when we try to answer some questions based in our particular experiences. In this process, conceptualizing-questionning-dissecting-ratiocinating, we refine our ideas, we learn more, together. When we share our particular views, this always enrich our experience and knowledge of an "object", we became more familiar with it.
I have had and I still have popping in my mind some of the questions that you brought here. My feedback is just what I came across in the process thanks to my stock of cookies and tea ;) but I can assure you that you and others will go forward and grasp more about the context, the liability and the characteristics of this new product.
I'm not "offended" at all by your last comments. I just realized that I wasn't clear with my first post, and it help me to give order and consistency to my opinion.
As my stock of cookies finally begins to end ;), I just have the time to share with you a last thought for now: I think that what is very important to see (also) is the new trends that are emerging, they need and have to be addressed. These are powerfull trends that need an innovative technological answer as their convergence growth.

"We are all so engaged in the way computers and applications work today that it can be difficult for us to see beyond the current framework. There continues to be little change in how applications work even though the Internet is sparking a fundamental shift in architecture to a networked, distributed, multi-device world. As the Internet evolves into a platform that provides worldwide distributed data storage, distributed computing, and real-time communication, we need an appropriate application metaphor for this new world of information in which we are becoming immersed - one that works across a multitude of devices, evolving from previous ages of the mainframe, the minicomputer, and the personal computer." Kevin Lynch - Whitepaper - PDF

But is my feeling that these trends are also challenging us (developers for instance).
How we are going to answer?

Posted by: aSH at February 8, 2004 07:19 PM

Whew, another long one, with lots of different topics in one thread... please forgive me if I focus on the biggest showstoppers I see in there:

For "localization, when?" see "which localization" in previous reply (there's shell, there's each app, there are local data services, and then there are transaction services and tax structures for sales). Everyone in the world is important, but concepts and initial learning curve usually don't take place in all simultaneously at the start.

For "PDAs, which player version?" both are growing... pocket devices quickly growing stronger... player abilities growing to match. Predicting the day the curves will intersect, for a given locale and pricepoint, is tricky. But I think any reader can agree that (a) most everyone will want ready customizable power in their pocket and (b) the Flash/Central framework compares favorably with the complexity of Java and the lock-in of Longhorn.

For "memory hit?" the big control is in the development community... just _how_often_ should a background agent make requests? How friendly can a pod be to a low-end machine? There are shell codebase changes which can help too, but just as CD-ROM people had a learning curve when approaching browser plugins, we'll see similar learning curves when adding the "application browser" delivery channel to our choices. (Watch what happens with RSS, for instance... will it stay a compact notification service, or will full multimedia content also be shoved in there instead of finding its own format...!?)

For "branding", "partnerships" and some others, I know that the Central team has been working at incorporating earlier feedback in these areas, but I don't know the exact final form of the next release and set of announcements yet, myself. I *do* know that such comments have already been valuable in guiding change, if that vague context is of use.

Some of these topics are also mentioned, at greater length, in these two articles from last year... useful?
http://www.macromedia.com/devnet/jd_forum/jd027.html
http://www.macromedia.com/devnet/jd_forum/jd028.html

I'm jazzed because it's obvious now that document browsers won't suffice for all network needs, and there's increasing hesitancy to install the native-code of strangers on your own machine. It's hard to predict things in advance, but from what I've seen since release Central is the strongest candidate out there to satisfy these new delivery needs for new consumer capabilities.

cu, jd/mm

Posted by: John Dowdell at February 9, 2004 06:27 AM

>#1

I dont currently have a time frame. We are currently looking at the features for the next version of Central. What OS's and language we localize to is part of that process.

>#2

If and when we support PDAs with Central, I would imagine that it would be the same version as the desktop version.

fyi, from what we have been hearing from developers, they are more interested in a linux version of Central, than a pocket pc (or other PDA) version. Personally I aggree with this, as it would take extra work to move a desktop central app to a pda central app.

>#3

This would happen by our improving memory usuage in Central (and Flash), which is conicidentally one of the top things we are focusing on.

>#7

Yes. We have been hearing a lot about this laltely. I am not sure when it will happen, but when it does, we want to make sure we get it right.

>#8

Currently the user has to specify whether they are on or offline. i.e. Central doesn't auto detect it. This is surprising difficult to impliment across all of the platforms / OS versions that Central support.

Regardless, this is one of the top items for the next release.

As far as AOL, there are two things it offers for develoers:

-The ability to tap into the AOL / ICQ im network. This will only appeal to a subset of developers.
-having AOL push central to its 33 million users. That is what I am excited about.

>#10

Yep. There were, and are still problems with Flash MX 2004. That is why we had a patch, and is why we are spending a lot of time talking to developers one on one to find out how they want us to improve the product. Expect to hear more on this over the coming weeks.

However, as far as the Central team's responsivness to developers, I think that we have been very open, and very responsive.

>11 : How will you make the charts without maxing out the CPU?

Again, we are focusing on improving performance of the Flash player. There have been significant improvements with each release, but we are looking at ways of making improvements that would be orders of magnitudes faster than the current player.

Again though, more info on this over the coming months.

mike chambers

mesh@macromedia.com


Posted by: mike chambers at February 10, 2004 01:24 PM

Interesting news about making the Flash player faster.

Will this be only within Central?, given that you have more freedom to do what you like, as opposed to a plug-in technology. Or the browser plug-in too?

More importantly, will mac and linux users also get a speed boost?

I'm encouraged to see that Macromedia is thinking seriously about issues like player speed.

In my opinion, you rested on your laurels over the years regarding the browser plug-in. Afterall, there was never any real competition with the authoring tools or user base (Java applets, Javascript, remember Electrifier Pro? :) So you never really tried to hard to push the limits of the technology.

Now you've got yourself into a whole new arena. Facing the future along and some tough competition this time. It would be great to see Macromedia pull the stops out on this one.

Do this, and you could even win back my respect and confidence, as well as possibly dominating the RIA arena.

Posted by: Daniel Freeman at February 10, 2004 09:02 PM

>Will this be only within Central?, Or the browser plug-in too?

It would be the core Flash Player code, which would thus affect everything (including Central, and the web player)

>More importantly, will mac and linux users also get a speed boost?

That is one of our goals.

mike chambers

mesh@macromedia.com

Posted by: mike chambers at February 11, 2004 01:21 AM